Salvation From What?
The way we define “salvation” has obvious implications.
For example, if salvation is something that is easily lost, then perhaps it is better to wait as long as possible before asking for it. If salvation is something that cannot be lost, then we must be very careful not to become complacent. If salvation is only concerned with getting us into heaven when we die, then maybe we should be in more of a hurry to get there. If salvation is about health and wealth in this world, then we don’t have that much to look forward to, do we?
Perhaps we should start by asking what is it precisely that we are saved from. The verse I mentioned yesterday says that Jesus “will save his people from their sins” (Matthew 1:21). But what exactly does that mean? Is that the same as being saved from hell? My, the questions have begun to multiply, haven’t they?
What exactly is salvation?
If I want salvation, how do I get it?
If salvation is mine, what am I saved from?
What do I do with this salvation once I have it?
November 28th, 2006 at 5:56 pm
I would say (1) Salvation from the coming destruction of Jerusalem in the first century and (2) salvatio from the Lake of Fire described in the book of revelation.
Hopefully this helps you place your question into its correct historical context and perhaps prompt to even wonder if what happened in AD 70 is not synonymous with “The Lake of Fire” i.e. Gehenna, the literal trash dump outside the city of Jerusalem where thousands of bodies were burned by the Roman armies after the Temple was destroyed.
So maybe your question is 2,000 years late? I often wonder that myself
November 28th, 2006 at 8:38 pm
Oh, Virgil, you do more than wonder about that. That’s your theological and philosophical presupposition!
Thanks for your input here. Preterism has some interesting scholarship these days, but I cannot buy the idea that Jesus was only interested in keeping Israel from being clobbered in AD 70. In fact, I think Jesus statements reveal that he didn’t think the Destruction of the Temple is the same thing as the End of Time.
I realize I’m at odds with Tom Wright on this — and that might be a little like my three-year-old trying to tell me how to drive — but I don’t think what Jesus came to save me from was the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.
November 28th, 2006 at 9:52 pm
Salvation from religiosity. That’s one thing that I think Jesus came to save us from. Look at the history of the Jews.
Jamie
November 28th, 2006 at 9:58 pm
Salvation from what?…
In His Big Grip » Blog Archive » Salvation From What?
John Turner has started an interesting discussion on his blog about salvation. Should be interesting to see the discussion.
Technorati Tags: salvation, god, theology
……
November 28th, 2006 at 10:01 pm
Actually I did not say that Jesus came to save you from the destruction of Jerusalem; the destruction of Jerusalem seems to be a type for the Lake of Fire described by John in Revelation, and the typological aspects of many of those passages seem to fit very well together, with “salvation” becoming both very real in a very literal sense in the first century and very real in a very spiritual sense today, just as Death has entered the world in a very prototypical way at the Fall.
And Preterism being a presupposition? I don’t konw…maybe, but I am still on a journey and have more questions now than when I was a diehard dispensationalist with all my answers neatly listed in my answer book
November 28th, 2006 at 10:45 pm
Virgil,
I apologize for making assumptions about your presuppositions. From reading your website, it seems clear that you’re firmly in the Preterist/Transmillennial camp.
I agree that there are no easy answers (like Dispensationalism tends to offer).
Still, it’s important to seek, and I’m not sure we’ve gotten any closer to answering the questions that are on the table:
What exactly is salvation?
If I want salvation, how do I get it?
If salvation is mine, what am I saved from?
What do I do with this salvation once I have it?
You’ve said it was real in a literal sense in the first century and in a spiritual sense today. What does that mean?
November 28th, 2006 at 11:13 pm
John, there was no need to apologize – I have thick skin.
What exactly is salvation?
–Twofold answer: deliverance from the destruction of the Roman persecution and armies, and deliverance from the destruction of the Lake of Fire (what this means is a whole other conversation)
If salvation is mine, what am I saved from?
–My personal answer would be that I am being saved from being annihilated from “eternal destruction”
What do I do with this salvation once I have it?
–Realize it by living it and undertand its close ties with the present Kingdom of God which was really the “good news” proclaimed by Jesus in the first century
My statement was really trying to describe (apparently poorly at best) typology in light of this discussion on salvation. There are patterns throughout the Scripture where God is using a literal physical event to teach us higher spiritual realities. To give a few examples:
1. Adam and Eve died physically because of their fall but their physical death was a type (or a symbol if you will) of their separation from God experienced as a result of the fall
2. Noah’s flood of 40 days is a type, with its anti-type being perhaps the 40 years of tumult and change experienced by the Church between A.D. 30 and A.D. 70.
3. David was a type of Christ in that he was the king of Israel just as Christ has become the King eventually.
etc…
The examples are numerous, and salvation seems to fit as well. Note that in the first few verses of Matthew 24 Jesus is talking about a terrible time of tumult and destruction, yet later on he simply tells the audience to “leave Jerusalem” in order to be “saved.” But we also know that humanity was in need of restoration to God, which came about by resurrection and judgment.
Now you do realize that we are actually trying to solve the biggest puzzle in Christianity here right?
There is debate over what much of this language actually means. What is the Lake of Fire? What does it “do”? What is the resurrection all about? What does it mean to be “in Christ” as Paul speaks about?
I think after a good night sleep I may be able to give you answer to all those questions.
I am joking of course; this is just where I am now and as always, I am open to suggestions.
What do you think salvation is?
November 28th, 2006 at 11:48 pm
Virgil,
Thanks for your clarification and civility. If I had to sum up the NT understanding of the word “salvation” in one word it would be this: life.
“In him was life, and that life was the light of men” (John 1:4).
“And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life” (1 John 5:11-12).
“For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!” (Romans 5:10)
“But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions – it is by grace you have been saved” (Ephesians 2:4-5).
“Therefore Jesus said again, ‘I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life and have it to the full’” (John 10:7-10).
The gospel that Jesus came to proclaim is the availability of life in the Kingdom of God. Jesus’ gospel is the gospel of life; the possibility of God’s life lived in, among and through us.
I’ve been interacting a lot with Dallas Willard’s understanding of Jesus’ teachings, and tomorrow night I’ll try my best to dismantle what he refers to as “The Gospel of Sin Management” — the idea that the gospel is simply the minimum entrance requirements for getting into heaven. That misunderstanding turns the gospel into something that’s disconnected from life and is only about how to get past the gate.
Given all of that, I still find your answers deficient in many ways. It sounds as if you’re falling into the trap of making salvation be just about what happens to me when I die. In your own words: “I am being saved from being annihilated from ‘eternal destruction’.”
I think that is part of it, but that is only part of it. You are also saved from the power of sin in the here and now — saved from a life of futility and frustration — saved from meaninglessness and purposelessness. You are not only saved FROM something, but you are saved TO something — a life of depth and stability — a life of significance and nobility.
Too much focus on what comes after we die leads us to neglect and even deride what happens in the here and now. It is because of what will happen to us in the future that we ought to live better lives in the now.
November 29th, 2006 at 4:58 am
There is an important sense in which Jesus Himself is the gospel. That is the sense of Mark 1:1. Encountering and responding to Jesus is salvation and He demands that we become like Him. If the gospel is Jesus then we can see how His life, teaching, actions, death and resurrection form the basis for all the teaching of the N.T.
November 29th, 2006 at 8:06 am
Very good, John.
November 29th, 2006 at 8:39 am
Sin=death
Sin=separation from God
Sin=wrath of God
I think talking about salvation from sin is appropriate only if we realize what the results of sin are. Salvation is eternal life, as opposed to death, it is community with God (Father, Son, and Spirit) instead of separation, and it is avoidance the wrath/judgment/punishment we deserve for our sin.
we have spent a few decades downplaying the “fire and brimstone” stuff. now, it is just quaint nostalgia. But God hasn’t changed. He is still Holy. There is still going to be Heaven and Hell. Sin is still so repugnant, terrible, and anti-God that only sacrifice of Jesus really shows how terrible it is.
People don’t know what they are saved from anymore because we have decided that preaching about sin and Hell and Wrath are not pleasant, not good for seekers, not representative of our Loving and Gracious God.
November 29th, 2006 at 10:57 am
Brian,
A couple of questions spring to mind:
When you say “we” — who do you mean?
Are we only saved from God’s wrath? Are we not also saved from The Curse (which involves other things besides hell)?
Here’s what I’m thinking: by only thinking of salvation in terms of what happens to us when we die, we make salvation too small. It is about what happens to us when we die, but it’s about so much more than just that. It’s not only about avoiding the “fire and brimstone” stuff; it’s about gaining community with God (Father, Son and Spirit) — and that community begins right now.
November 29th, 2006 at 12:11 pm
I have to go with Dee from the previous post on this one. Particularly coming to mind is:
I was sinking deep in sin, far from the peaceful shore,
Very deeply stained within, sinking to rise no more,
But the Master of the sea, heard my despairing cry,
From the waters lifted me, now safe am I.
Refrain
Love lifted me! Love lifted me!
When nothing else could help
Love lifted me!
All my heart to Him I give, ever to Him I’ll cling
In His blessèd presence live, ever His praises sing,
Love so mighty and so true, merits my soul’s best songs,
Faithful, loving service too, to Him belongs.
Refrain
Souls in danger look above, Jesus completely saves,
He will lift you by His love, out of the angry waves.
He’s the Master of the sea, billows His will obey,
He your Savior wants to be, be saved today.
Refrain
Salvation is hope, purpose (here gets encompassed more than just me…),
etc….
November 29th, 2006 at 2:23 pm
Are we not also saved from The Curse (which involves other things besides hell)?
If I may submit something, humanity was delivered from the Curse long ago by Noah. Genesis 5:28,29 seem so suggest this.
Salvation is of course not solely about what happens when we die – I even wrote an article (Hellpoint Christianity) condemning the idea that Christianity is about avoiding Hell. However salvation is also not mostly about delivering humanity from poverty, the Curse, Capitalism, pollution, consumerism or other things Emergent folks like to perceive as “social inequities.” Salvation transcends societies, cultures…time and space.
In other words there is such a thing as The Kingdom of God, which we know that “is not of this world” – a Kingdom that is about communing with God and being restored to the same relationship that Adam and Eve had in Eden.
As I continue to observe this conversation I am also starting to believe that the question “What is Salvation” is perhaps implying or demanding an overly simplistic answer.
November 29th, 2006 at 2:54 pm
Virgil,
I don’t think being comforted is the same as being delivered. Romans 8 suggests that creation still groans under the weight of frustration brought about by the curse and will continue to do so until it is finally “liberated from its bondage to decay”.
People on the right of the theological spectrum tend to make salvation only about the forgiveness of an individual’s sins. People on the left of the theological spectrum tend to make salvation only about the removal of social or structural evils.
I think both miss the fact that salvation and the gospel must involve the possibility of personal transformation and redemption of ordinary life. It is not merely about justification or activism; it is about regeneration.
November 29th, 2006 at 3:46 pm
I guess by “we” I meant lots of churches and preachers-Christendom. a generalization, yes, but a valid one.
yes, I agree (even though I didn’t say it) that eternal life has as much to do with quality of life as quantity. eternal life is knowing God-John 17:1-3;
is something we enjoy before Jesus comes back. and i agree that the community begins and is enjoyed now.
but are we saved totally from the curse before the parousia? we still die, work by ’sweat of our brow’, etc even while experience eternal life. the earth is awaiting its redemption, and so are we in a sense.
wish I could have enjoyed your class…
November 29th, 2006 at 3:57 pm
just to clarify my last statement…
it was spoken by someone in a different state unable to attend the bible class mentioned
not by someone who was present but didn’t enjoy it..