it was spoken by someone in a different state unable to attend the bible class mentioned

not by someone who was present but didn’t enjoy it..

yes, I agree (even though I didn’t say it) that eternal life has as much to do with quality of life as quantity. eternal life is knowing God-John 17:1-3;
is something we enjoy before Jesus comes back. and i agree that the community begins and is enjoyed now.

but are we saved totally from the curse before the parousia? we still die, work by ’sweat of our brow’, etc even while experience eternal life. the earth is awaiting its redemption, and so are we in a sense.

wish I could have enjoyed your class…

People on the right of the theological spectrum tend to make salvation only about the forgiveness of an individual’s sins. People on the left of the theological spectrum tend to make salvation only about the removal of social or structural evils.

I think both miss the fact that salvation and the gospel must involve the possibility of personal transformation and redemption of ordinary life. It is not merely about justification or activism; it is about regeneration.

If I may submit something, humanity was delivered from the Curse long ago by Noah. Genesis 5:28,29 seem so suggest this.

Salvation is of course not solely about what happens when we die – I even wrote an article (Hellpoint Christianity) condemning the idea that Christianity is about avoiding Hell. However salvation is also not mostly about delivering humanity from poverty, the Curse, Capitalism, pollution, consumerism or other things Emergent folks like to perceive as “social inequities.” Salvation transcends societies, cultures…time and space.

In other words there is such a thing as The Kingdom of God, which we know that “is not of this world” – a Kingdom that is about communing with God and being restored to the same relationship that Adam and Eve had in Eden.

As I continue to observe this conversation I am also starting to believe that the question “What is Salvation” is perhaps implying or demanding an overly simplistic answer.

I was sinking deep in sin, far from the peaceful shore,
Very deeply stained within, sinking to rise no more,
But the Master of the sea, heard my despairing cry,
From the waters lifted me, now safe am I.

Refrain

Love lifted me! Love lifted me!
When nothing else could help
Love lifted me!

All my heart to Him I give, ever to Him I’ll cling
In His blessèd presence live, ever His praises sing,
Love so mighty and so true, merits my soul’s best songs,
Faithful, loving service too, to Him belongs.

Refrain

Souls in danger look above, Jesus completely saves,
He will lift you by His love, out of the angry waves.
He’s the Master of the sea, billows His will obey,
He your Savior wants to be, be saved today.

Refrain

Salvation is hope, purpose (here gets encompassed more than just me…),
etc….

When you say “we” — who do you mean?

Are we only saved from God’s wrath? Are we not also saved from The Curse (which involves other things besides hell)?

Here’s what I’m thinking: by only thinking of salvation in terms of what happens to us when we die, we make salvation too small. It is about what happens to us when we die, but it’s about so much more than just that. It’s not only about avoiding the “fire and brimstone” stuff; it’s about gaining community with God (Father, Son and Spirit) — and that community begins right now.

I think talking about salvation from sin is appropriate only if we realize what the results of sin are. Salvation is eternal life, as opposed to death, it is community with God (Father, Son, and Spirit) instead of separation, and it is avoidance the wrath/judgment/punishment we deserve for our sin.

we have spent a few decades downplaying the “fire and brimstone” stuff. now, it is just quaint nostalgia. But God hasn’t changed. He is still Holy. There is still going to be Heaven and Hell. Sin is still so repugnant, terrible, and anti-God that only sacrifice of Jesus really shows how terrible it is.

People don’t know what they are saved from anymore because we have decided that preaching about sin and Hell and Wrath are not pleasant, not good for seekers, not representative of our Loving and Gracious God.

“In him was life, and that life was the light of men” (John 1:4).

“And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life” (1 John 5:11-12).

“For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!” (Romans 5:10)

“But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions – it is by grace you have been saved” (Ephesians 2:4-5).

“Therefore Jesus said again, ‘I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life and have it to the full’” (John 10:7-10).

The gospel that Jesus came to proclaim is the availability of life in the Kingdom of God. Jesus’ gospel is the gospel of life; the possibility of God’s life lived in, among and through us.

I’ve been interacting a lot with Dallas Willard’s understanding of Jesus’ teachings, and tomorrow night I’ll try my best to dismantle what he refers to as “The Gospel of Sin Management” — the idea that the gospel is simply the minimum entrance requirements for getting into heaven. That misunderstanding turns the gospel into something that’s disconnected from life and is only about how to get past the gate.

Given all of that, I still find your answers deficient in many ways. It sounds as if you’re falling into the trap of making salvation be just about what happens to me when I die. In your own words: “I am being saved from being annihilated from ‘eternal destruction’.”

I think that is part of it, but that is only part of it. You are also saved from the power of sin in the here and now — saved from a life of futility and frustration — saved from meaninglessness and purposelessness. You are not only saved FROM something, but you are saved TO something — a life of depth and stability — a life of significance and nobility.

Too much focus on what comes after we die leads us to neglect and even deride what happens in the here and now. It is because of what will happen to us in the future that we ought to live better lives in the now.