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	<title>Comments on: Conflicted Applause (Re-Post)</title>
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	<description>Helping people live better lives by re-examining what they really believe.</description>
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		<title>By: it&#8217;s (a) just war &#171; aliens and strangers</title>
		<link>http://blog.faith20.org/2009/11/11/conflicted-applause-re-post/comment-page-1/#comment-68090</link>
		<dc:creator>it&#8217;s (a) just war &#171; aliens and strangers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 05:05:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.faith20.org/?p=1212#comment-68090</guid>
		<description>[...] from John Alan Turner this morning that really touched me, and made me think.  You can read it here.  I feel there&#8217;s a deeper issue underneath all of this, and I intend to devote some time to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] from John Alan Turner this morning that really touched me, and made me think.  You can read it here.  I feel there&#8217;s a deeper issue underneath all of this, and I intend to devote some time to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: JamesBrett</title>
		<link>http://blog.faith20.org/2009/11/11/conflicted-applause-re-post/comment-page-1/#comment-68089</link>
		<dc:creator>JamesBrett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 04:54:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.faith20.org/?p=1212#comment-68089</guid>
		<description>This post reminds me of questions I&#039;ve pushed to the back of my mind for some time -- both because of the difficulty of thinking through them, and because I&#039;m living in East Africa now and don&#039;t read often about the military and casualties and discussions of pacifism and just war.  And I definitely am standing in the same corner with you, conflicted applause and all.

But as long as my memory&#039;s been jogged, I might as well try and work through a little of this.  It&#039;s probably a drastic oversimplification, but I&#039;ve always seen Jesus as one who gave up his own &quot;personal&quot; rights, but was willing to stand and defend the rights of others.  That&#039;s how I&#039;ve read the New Testament -- that I should be willing to turn my cheek and not raise a hand to defend myself.  But that if someone is being oppressed or taken advantage of, and is unable to defend his/herself, then it becomes my responsibility.

I&#039;m reminded of walking down a back alley late one night in Wuhan, China.  Often while I lived there I heard about the intensity with which many men would beat their  wives into submission.  This one night in particular I witnessed it.  Without thinking I stepped in between the two, asked him why he was doing this, and told him he&#039;d better stop.  He did stop, with his head hung in shame -- not because what he was doing was wrong, but because he was being corrected directly by another individual.  I don&#039;t know if what I did was right.  It may be that his wife received a harsher beating that very night for embarrassing him.  It may be that I should have dealt with this problem differently in a culture with so much emphasis on honor and shame.  But what I do know is that I didn&#039;t have to hit or push this guy to get him to stop, but would have if it had been required.  I know that action would have been justified by most, but I don&#039;t know if it would have been like Christ.

That night in China wasn&#039;t war, nor was it taking the life of another.  But I magnify that night times thousands and I begin to wonder about protecting those who can&#039;t protect themselves on a larger scale -- and when do we decide to push or hit.  Or do we?  Will the beating be more severe next time, because we resisted?  Will we be less like Christ, because we fought?

Either way, I should make clear that I greatly appreciate and respect those who defend our country.  I know there are numerous sacrifices made, so that the U.S. can be a safer place, and so that people like me can sit around and think about these issues and others, freely.  I don&#039;t think posting today has gotten me a great deal closer to having all the answers, but at least I&#039;m now engaged in the discussion.  And for the time being, I&#039;ll refrain from clapping and fold those hands in prayer -- seems like that will help everyone involved a great deal more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post reminds me of questions I&#8217;ve pushed to the back of my mind for some time &#8212; both because of the difficulty of thinking through them, and because I&#8217;m living in East Africa now and don&#8217;t read often about the military and casualties and discussions of pacifism and just war.  And I definitely am standing in the same corner with you, conflicted applause and all.</p>
<p>But as long as my memory&#8217;s been jogged, I might as well try and work through a little of this.  It&#8217;s probably a drastic oversimplification, but I&#8217;ve always seen Jesus as one who gave up his own &#8220;personal&#8221; rights, but was willing to stand and defend the rights of others.  That&#8217;s how I&#8217;ve read the New Testament &#8212; that I should be willing to turn my cheek and not raise a hand to defend myself.  But that if someone is being oppressed or taken advantage of, and is unable to defend his/herself, then it becomes my responsibility.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m reminded of walking down a back alley late one night in Wuhan, China.  Often while I lived there I heard about the intensity with which many men would beat their  wives into submission.  This one night in particular I witnessed it.  Without thinking I stepped in between the two, asked him why he was doing this, and told him he&#8217;d better stop.  He did stop, with his head hung in shame &#8212; not because what he was doing was wrong, but because he was being corrected directly by another individual.  I don&#8217;t know if what I did was right.  It may be that his wife received a harsher beating that very night for embarrassing him.  It may be that I should have dealt with this problem differently in a culture with so much emphasis on honor and shame.  But what I do know is that I didn&#8217;t have to hit or push this guy to get him to stop, but would have if it had been required.  I know that action would have been justified by most, but I don&#8217;t know if it would have been like Christ.</p>
<p>That night in China wasn&#8217;t war, nor was it taking the life of another.  But I magnify that night times thousands and I begin to wonder about protecting those who can&#8217;t protect themselves on a larger scale &#8212; and when do we decide to push or hit.  Or do we?  Will the beating be more severe next time, because we resisted?  Will we be less like Christ, because we fought?</p>
<p>Either way, I should make clear that I greatly appreciate and respect those who defend our country.  I know there are numerous sacrifices made, so that the U.S. can be a safer place, and so that people like me can sit around and think about these issues and others, freely.  I don&#8217;t think posting today has gotten me a great deal closer to having all the answers, but at least I&#8217;m now engaged in the discussion.  And for the time being, I&#8217;ll refrain from clapping and fold those hands in prayer &#8212; seems like that will help everyone involved a great deal more.</p>
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		<title>By: iz</title>
		<link>http://blog.faith20.org/2009/11/11/conflicted-applause-re-post/comment-page-1/#comment-68081</link>
		<dc:creator>iz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:05:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.faith20.org/?p=1212#comment-68081</guid>
		<description>Living two hrs. from Ft. Hood, TX where 13 soldiers were just brutally murdered by an American Doctor....I think of the song &quot;Homesick&quot; by Mercy Me. As long as we remain at war, I must remind myself &quot;this world is not my home&quot;. Which makes my heart homesick as our Nation and World, longs to finally make it home.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Living two hrs. from Ft. Hood, TX where 13 soldiers were just brutally murdered by an American Doctor&#8230;.I think of the song &#8220;Homesick&#8221; by Mercy Me. As long as we remain at war, I must remind myself &#8220;this world is not my home&#8221;. Which makes my heart homesick as our Nation and World, longs to finally make it home.</p>
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		<title>By: Christie B.</title>
		<link>http://blog.faith20.org/2009/11/11/conflicted-applause-re-post/comment-page-1/#comment-68080</link>
		<dc:creator>Christie B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:23:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.faith20.org/?p=1212#comment-68080</guid>
		<description>From what I understand (as the daughter of a Vietnam war era West Point grad), the rigorous unit training and boot camp is absolutely required to provide soldiers structure, which they have to grab hold of when everything goes to H - in a handbasket.  Battlefields, apparently, are a screaming chaos.  You need all the structure you can get to make it through.   Camp is also designed to: 1) convince you that you can handle crazy stress; convince you that you can do something that seems impossible; 3) create a strong bond with your unit.  Many vets talk about doing amazingly heroic things on the battlefield, &quot;for their buddies.&quot;  Abstract ideas dont get you through incredible battlefield mania -- your buddies do.

Groupthink is always possible in any group.  In fact I believe the origin of the word comes from the 50&#039;s and is in reference to washington policy makers.  And classic examples of groupthink tend to be civilian.

The recent military scandals I think are more an example of the &quot;bad barrel&quot; analogy, typified by the classic Stanford prison experiment of jailers and prisoners.  The Stanford team had to abandon the experiment after only 6 days because the students -- at STANFORD -- had become too absorbed in their roles, approximately one third of the student &quot;guards&quot; began to exhibit truly sadistic tendencies.  

These military incidents, while horrible, are not to my mind indicative of a military mind, per se, but indicative of what happens when you put a group of people in charge over another, in a poorly structured environment.  Career military I spoke with after Abu Ghraib were appalled that untrained NG units were given guardianship authority in these circumstances.  To them its more than embarrassing -- its a grievous violation of their codes - the Honor code for those enlisted military who perpetrated the abuse, and the code of giving &quot;proper&quot; orders, re: the commanding officers who directly ordered abuse or at the very least, didn&#039;t ensure proper direction and oversight.

As someone at a nonprofit, I would also say that those in the military -- and those in govt service in general -- are always your best volunteers, your most loyal donors, your surprise big supporters.  They &quot;get&quot; service and giving back.  Military and govt service must also do something very &quot;right&quot; for the human spirit....

I also think about the dean at West Point traveling to LA to confront the producers of 24, and to request that they stop glamorizing torture as an effective means of intelligence gathering -- he noted, “The disturbing thing is that although torture may cause Jack Bauer some angst, it is always the patriotic thing to do.” [excellent article about this in the NEW YORKER at http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/02/19/070219fa_fact_mayer]

For me it comes down to the following:  I believe that we, as a nation, have to provide for our protection.  given this, the military should use the best means available to train our all volunteer military, to be able to handle this heavy responsibility, with honor.  It&#039;s not for nothing that &quot;honor&quot; is included in virtually every military code.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From what I understand (as the daughter of a Vietnam war era West Point grad), the rigorous unit training and boot camp is absolutely required to provide soldiers structure, which they have to grab hold of when everything goes to H &#8211; in a handbasket.  Battlefields, apparently, are a screaming chaos.  You need all the structure you can get to make it through.   Camp is also designed to: 1) convince you that you can handle crazy stress; convince you that you can do something that seems impossible; 3) create a strong bond with your unit.  Many vets talk about doing amazingly heroic things on the battlefield, &#8220;for their buddies.&#8221;  Abstract ideas dont get you through incredible battlefield mania &#8212; your buddies do.</p>
<p>Groupthink is always possible in any group.  In fact I believe the origin of the word comes from the 50&#8217;s and is in reference to washington policy makers.  And classic examples of groupthink tend to be civilian.</p>
<p>The recent military scandals I think are more an example of the &#8220;bad barrel&#8221; analogy, typified by the classic Stanford prison experiment of jailers and prisoners.  The Stanford team had to abandon the experiment after only 6 days because the students &#8212; at STANFORD &#8212; had become too absorbed in their roles, approximately one third of the student &#8220;guards&#8221; began to exhibit truly sadistic tendencies.  </p>
<p>These military incidents, while horrible, are not to my mind indicative of a military mind, per se, but indicative of what happens when you put a group of people in charge over another, in a poorly structured environment.  Career military I spoke with after Abu Ghraib were appalled that untrained NG units were given guardianship authority in these circumstances.  To them its more than embarrassing &#8212; its a grievous violation of their codes &#8211; the Honor code for those enlisted military who perpetrated the abuse, and the code of giving &#8220;proper&#8221; orders, re: the commanding officers who directly ordered abuse or at the very least, didn&#8217;t ensure proper direction and oversight.</p>
<p>As someone at a nonprofit, I would also say that those in the military &#8212; and those in govt service in general &#8212; are always your best volunteers, your most loyal donors, your surprise big supporters.  They &#8220;get&#8221; service and giving back.  Military and govt service must also do something very &#8220;right&#8221; for the human spirit&#8230;.</p>
<p>I also think about the dean at West Point traveling to LA to confront the producers of 24, and to request that they stop glamorizing torture as an effective means of intelligence gathering &#8212; he noted, “The disturbing thing is that although torture may cause Jack Bauer some angst, it is always the patriotic thing to do.” [excellent article about this in the NEW YORKER at <a href="http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/02/19/070219fa_fact_mayer" rel="nofollow">http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/02/19/070219fa_fact_mayer</a></p>
<p>For me it comes down to the following:  I believe that we, as a nation, have to provide for our protection.  given this, the military should use the best means available to train our all volunteer military, to be able to handle this heavy responsibility, with honor.  It&#8217;s not for nothing that &#8220;honor&#8221; is included in virtually every military code.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Archer</title>
		<link>http://blog.faith20.org/2009/11/11/conflicted-applause-re-post/comment-page-1/#comment-68079</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Archer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:05:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.faith20.org/?p=1212#comment-68079</guid>
		<description>I think many of us can relate to this. As I find myself embracing more and more of pacifism, I seek to find a way to respect and honor those who choose to serve in the military. Many accuse me of disrespecting them and their sacrifice. Quite the opposite is true.

Veterans deserve love, support and respect, even by those who might have chosen a different path.

Grace and peace,
Tim Archer</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think many of us can relate to this. As I find myself embracing more and more of pacifism, I seek to find a way to respect and honor those who choose to serve in the military. Many accuse me of disrespecting them and their sacrifice. Quite the opposite is true.</p>
<p>Veterans deserve love, support and respect, even by those who might have chosen a different path.</p>
<p>Grace and peace,<br />
Tim Archer</p>
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