Not having any experience with church before Northpoint I realized that moving to a new city (Savannah) would require I really dig down into what we (wife and I) thought about church. Which meant how do we best define the crossroads between my family leadership responsibility / desire to be fed and where a church shows up to both meet my needs as well as provide a structure through which we can be part of God’s body (serving). With this ongoing analysis I’ve been struck by how Program-oriented so many churches here appear to be. Of course I’m dancing a line here in my attempt to not pass judgement but for us, a basketball team, VBS, etc etc. is not in the top 3-4 criteria as we go about assessing a church. I think I’m focused more on the sacrifice of the leadership and congregation. Sacrifice from the top down, where the leadership has laid down their pride and assumption of control (“success rests in our hands”), the congregation seems to follow, and the Holy Spirit is alive and palpable to the outsider that walks through the doors. Measuring how many meals served, games won, baptisms, etc. seems to be a trap to me.
CAVEAT WARNING- Before Jesus rescued me and His truth broke me of my intellectual dishonsety and pride, I gleefully engaged Christians in a debate to deflate, or seriously challenge, what they believed. Not that I am that smart, simply that most of the people I talked to had little Biblical knowledge to defend against my straw men, open ended questions, etc. Just debate strategy…so, I’m far from a scholar in this realm, I’m only offering a perspective, based in lots of prayer and wonder. /CAVEAT WARNING.
I do, periodically, succumb to the desire for measurement in some capacity but for our search, I’m intentionally resisting it. This is not about Works, it’s about spirit (little s). Is the spirit among the folks we meet in the first 30 seconds reflecting what’s going on in their hearts? Are they the Light on the stand? Do they believe and live out that Jesus is enough? Yes these are stringent limiting questions and I know there are many facets to that moment when I walk through the church doors but that’s where the gut check thing comes in. What the church is doing, IMO, from the spirit perspective, is inevitably Works because it’s born out of the fruit of the Spirit (big S). God promises that the logical product of an indwelling of the Holy Spirit is Works. Horse, then Cart.
(A reread shows me how disjointed this is but I hope I’m making the point.) This is about the quality of servitude, not the quantity. At the end of the day, for me, it’s about the depth of my relationships not the breadth.
In Reggie Joiner’s book Mentor Like Jesus he makes a statement about the finite amount of time he has to spend with mentorees, to paraphrase:” I realized I wanted to spend more time with fewer people”.
If I were running a church, and doing the math on how to support the church (and draw a paycheck), a numbers game wins. % of givers x # of people showing up….
As opposed to focusing on an assembly that is drawn and growing due to the quality of the people, as shown by the quality of their servitude, and trusting God to keep that momentum going. That product, I think, is a function of the quality of the congregation’s relationships with God and each other. Of course there is still a need for discipleship and Biblical training, but imagine how much more effective each of those disciples is when there is a person, invested in them, that knows the right approach because they have a relationship with them. IMO, again, no church-going history other than 9 years at NPCC and Buckhead, that depth is going to make wonderful Jesus loving people. That can, in real time, be investing in others. VBS seems like a factory approach vs. craftsman approach. I know Jesus taught groups and gatherings, but they were gathered typically due to religious or political reasons. Of course His best work seemed to be in conversation with another person…okay, it’s all His best work but you get my point.
Wow, you just burned 4 minutes reading all of this. As my wife says “Honey, land the plane”. I hope it landed…thanks for listening.

Walt,

I’m with you completely in that what I want to see in any church is God living in his disciples. And I’m with you, too, that we need to be living out our faith. But that’s my problem, I think. I mean this as respectfully as possible, but it’s a very strong conviction that I hold, so I’m afraid I’ll say it poorly: Living out my faith takes place OUTSIDE the walls of the church building, not in programs or in how friendly people are, or even in how much they feel like a family while they’re inside those doors.

And I’m not suggesting that we go from church to church measuring how effective each’s service is in the community or how far their outreach extends to non-Christans. But I am saying this seems to be how God measures our faith and love. Faith exhibits itself in a Spirit-empowered, obedient life. God expects his children to be fruitful. Jesus expects those that love him to be obedient to the father. I would suggest that worship is what we do in our everyday lives in our communities — and that what we ought to be doing when we come together on Sundays is bringing our lives of worship and obedience to lay before God, as we encourage one another in that process of worship and obedience.

I don’t want to sound like a works guy, and by no means is that who I am. It’s just that our churches seem to be so inward-focused and attractional in what we do, asking others to come to us because we’ve got Jesus. I just think God must be sad that we’re not living Jesus into the lives of those he loves — who may never dim the the doors of our Sunday “worship” or even our Friday night coffee shop.

That’s just a reality in most large churches, and, personally, I think it reflects a healthy restoration of the priesthood of the believers. We shouldn’t have grown so reliant upon professional clergy to do those kinds of things for us.

Having said that, I think large churches still ought to have some sort of “care ministry” for people like you’ve mentioned — those who aren’t connected to church and don’t have a small group of folks they’re doing life with (except for the kind people in their neighborhood bar).

People vs. Programs. Seems like you and I have been having that conversation for a decade now, eh? Programs are important, but they’re not created to live forever. People, on the other hand, are. So, it seems the Sabbath was made for man and not the other way ’round. I read that somewhere. Now how exactly to live that out….

You’re right on about keeping focused on the Ultimate Answer (which is Jesus himself and the life-giving message of redemption he brings). That’s always got to be the center of the target.

Let me know where you’re living now. I may be able to help connect you w/ a good, healthy, full-of-God’s-life church where you are.

We’ve scheduled our people out of ever having to live incarnationally in their own neighborhoods.

We must begin taking a lesson from successful businesses who are learning that sometimes less is more.

Decentralize ministry, I say! Do fewer things on campus. Do fewer things that must be overseen by ministry professionals. Do more in your neighborhood, more informal things. It all counts.

And teach people to study the Bible themselves. If they choose not to, it’s on them. But church leaders can’t continue to cut folks’ meat for them and expect them to ever grow up. I sometimes wonder if many of our programs just end up stunting a person’s growth.

it’s about people, not programs

may we seek relationships (w/ Abba & others) over religion

Then one of Andy’s sermons hooked me and I got it.

Knowing all the warts and roses that come with the big churches, we are now in a smaller city in the hunt for a church home. My perspective is now very different about what church should be. It seems to me that this article’s perspective speaks to a number of ideas about what church should be, how is should to be measured, effectiveness vs. biblical mandate, etc.
I now realize that what I want to see in a church is God alive in the leadership and the congregation. Not measured by how effective their serving is, or outreach is, but in how I feel when I walk in the doors based on the people I meet. Surprising to me is how little weight the environment carries given what we are accustomed to.
Numerous times Paul showed up to tell the religious elite that their way was wrong but he had the ultimate answer. If we, as a gathering of believers, are focused on the ultimately answer, and living it out, then the rest of this conversation is structure and process. Not to say God is not interested in us applying it, but recognizing that at it’s core the church rests in the heart of it’s people…
Sorry, I realized I’m rambling and lost the central tenant.